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Internet Message Format | 1994-07-18 | 18KB

Date: 6/16/94
Start Time: 18:00:11
End Time: 22:26:51

Lines: 439
Chat length: 27281 bytes
Number of participants: 32
Participants: Adamsb, AFA Pieter, AFC Donna, AFC PeterS, AFL Bear, AFL GeneS, AFL Rod, AFT Ilene, Alexis Kai, BarryP13, DIGI RAVEN, DunIt, EarlChr, Imagewerks, JRL13, KellieT, KERNO, LeslieG1, LONDON1813, MAHA BONE1, MoneyDog, PaulRose, Peaceeper, PERockwell, QuadraDude, Ramz, Sir Do, Suzanne514, TM ScottS, Velvet J, Yawgoog




AFA Pieter : OK The topic of the Chat tonight is AOCE or
             Apple Open Collaboration Environment.
             Basically AOCE is Apple's pre-emptive strike
             against Microsoft╒s MAPI architecture and will
             hopefully provide us Mac enterprise types with
             the framework we need to tie all our Macs
             together in a more coherent network.  Anyhow,
             thats the technical stuff.  Helping out tonight
             will be the ever so helpful AFL Bear, the ever
             resourceful AFC PeterS and of course AFC Donna
             and lest we forget AFT Ilene. So, with that out
             of the way, Peter, who has the first question.




Suzanne514 : "Finder"  error 41.......and then the screen
             stays light and says to restart I have an LC and
             am using 7.1

AFC PeterS : Suzanne, have you tried running with all
             extensions off?

Suzanne514 : No, haven't tries that

AFC PeterS : This sounds like a conflict, but you may also
             need to reinstall the System. Start by running
             with no extensions, just to see if you get the
             error.

Suzanne514 : Well, OK, I'll try that tomorrow then...until
             then, I guess I should leave my 'puter on w/ a
             screen saver

AFC PeterS : If it goes away, grab a document in our
             Frequently Asked Questions area about resolving
             conflicts... ...and just follow those
             instructions. There's a demo in MUT of Conflict
             Catcher that might...come in handy, even if you
             have an extension manager. :)

AFL Bear   : If it doesn't go away, grab the "How to perform
             a Clean System Install."  :)

Suzanne514 : Gee, thanks a lot, I appreciate the help




Alexis Kai : Hello, Ilene and Bear! What's AOCE anyway?

AFL Bear   : Apple's Open Collaborative Environment.
             Otherwise known as PowerTalk and PowerShare

Alexis Kai : In English, Bear.

AFL Bear   : I use it a lot, but not its special abilities.
             That is the ability for applications to share
             data and communicate.

Alexis Kai : No, that was AppleEnglish 6.3.8.




Sir Do     : I have a Mac classic with 4 MB of ram I want to
             run system 7 is it possible

AFA Pieter : Yes, you can do it, however it will be pretty
             slow on an unaccelerated Mac Classic. ga

Sir Do     : I'm thinking of upgrading to the 68030.  Will I
             have any bombs with 7

AFA Pieter : NO, in fact it will probably perform more
             reliably on a 68030 based Mac than it would on
             your Classic

AFT Ilene  : You should make sure you are running system 7
             compatible applications, though

AFC PeterS : And make that a *real* '030 Mac - don't
             accelerate the Classic.

Sir Do     : So accelerating the classic is not advisable

AFL GeneS  : Or even get yourself a real 040 Mac....they are
             not very expensive these days.

AFC PeterS : Good idea. :)

Sir Do     : OK.  Thank you. You've been helpful.  Bye




Velvet J   : Don't you think the PowerTalk interface is
             cluttered (i.e. non-intuitive)?

AFL Bear   : Do you mean PowerMail or PowerTalk, Velvet?

AFA Pieter : Well Velvet, to be honest, compared to other
             functionally comparable systems, the PowerTalk
             interface is pretty clean

Velvet J   : With GX and PowerTalk on 7.5, that's one full
             desktop?

AFL GeneS  : (And a lot of RAM required. ;)

AFL Bear   : How do you use PowerTalk, Velvet?

Velvet J   : Testing it for a company. In place of QuickMail.

AFL Bear   : Do you have lots of Desktop Printers running
             under GX, too?
Velvet J   : Three desktop printers,catalogs,keychains,
             mailbox.

AFL Bear   : Well, that's a pretty loose interpretation of
             PowerTalk', but we can fly with it in a bit. :)
             Peaceeper  : hi every one yeah, that adds up to
             a lot of icons on a desktop, I guess.

Velvet J   : Just an observation, nothing important.

AFL Bear   : (And a good one, too.  It does make one have to
             look through the clutter for drives and stuff,
             Velvet.




Yawgoog    : What╒s is the cheapest way to get voice
             recognition  on a Performa 460? (am I on
             topic?)

AFL Bear   : Navigator software, I believe.

AFA Pieter : I would suggest that you look at VoiceNavigator.

AFL Bear   : From Articulate Software, I think.

Yawgoog    : Cheaper please, that costs $400

AFA Pieter : It has both a microphone plus some other
             hardware and software. Sorry. There is no
             cheaper option that I know of.  They all need
             some hardware, like that built into the avs

AFL Bear   : Articulate Systems is the company name, to be
             precise.





Alexis Kai : Well, it's a bit off topic, but... How much more
             RAM and drive space (%) will PM native apps
             likely take up than 68K apps? Just a bit.

AFA Pieter : It depends Alexis, I usually assume about a 50%
             increase in HD space when getting a fat app. a
             pure PowerMac app should not be much larger than
             a standard Mac app

AFT Ilene  : oh, now we all have to buy gig drives!

Alexis Kai : But wouldn't a program only install half of it,
             Pieter? And don't the programs have to be
             larger, because the RISC instruction set is so
             small? (Correct me if I'm way off base.)

TM ScottS  : With a smaller (RISC) instruction set, some apps
             have to call more instructions...string them
             together to replace those found in a CISC
             processor.

AFA Pieter : Alexis, only if you tell it to and if the
             installer supports doing a modified install

AFL GeneS  : Pieter, native PageMaker and FreeHand apps  are
             at least 1MB or more larger than 68K
             counterparts. RAM requires are much larger too.

Alexis Kai : I always do custom installs.

AFA Pieter : I know the Apple and Aladdin installers will
             allow you to install only the PowerMac or 68k
             version Gene, I believe those are Fat Apps

Alexis Kai : I need to know in order to anticipate space
             requirements when we but a PM.

AFL GeneS  : Nope they are not. FreeHand and PageMaker...
             ship as separate packages for now.

AFA Pieter : Besides, much of the size can be traced back to
             how efficient the optimizer on the compiler is,
             a inefficient optimizer can yield much fatter
             code than the code created by a highly optimized
             compiler

Alexis Kai : How about RAM requirements? Will 8 megs be
             enough, if I also buy RAMDoubler?

AFL GeneS  : Figure on 1-2MB more for each major productivity
             app.

Alexis Kai : And does that work on PowerMacs?

AFA Pieter : RAM Doubler will not run on a PowerMac

Alexis Kai : Ick.

AFT Ilene  : yet... Will it later, Pieter?

AFA Pieter : The modern memory manager breaks RAMDoubler

AFL GeneS  : (PowerMac version will be out next month, I
             hear.)


PERockwell : I'd belly up and get the RAM. You're going to
             waste CPU speed compressing/decompressing
             memory.

Alexis Kai : PE, but will that really make a difference with
             the PowerMac's speed?

PERockwell : Funny thing about CPU power - apps always seem
             to want to use 110% of whatever you have
             available.

Alexis Kai : We probably won't be buying for another 6-10
             months, anyway.

AFA Pieter : Well then there should be some real nice new PCI
             Bus based PowerMacs

AFT Ilene  : Yeah, the new Macs look nice!

Alexis Kai : What does PCI have to do with RAM?

AFC PeterS : Nothing. :)

AFA Pieter : Not much Alexis.  However since all the new Macs
             will use it people should be aware of it so that
             they can plan their migration given that a NuBus
             card will not work with PCI

PERockwell : Has Apple completed the new SCSI Manager so we
             can take advantage of the bandwidth that PCI
             gives us?

AFT Ilene  : What will folks with Nubus do then, Pieter?
             This concerns me

Alexis Kai : However, my base RAM question still hasn't been
             answered. Someone will probably bring out a
             Nubus -> PCI adapter.

AFA Pieter : They will need to switch and replace all there
             cards. PCI is really much faster and since it is
             an industry standard, should be much cheaper.

AFL GeneS  : Alexis: The product manager for the Power
             Macintosh line said you should figure on needing
             4MB more RAM on a PowerPC Mac than on the 68K
             version. My feeling, that and more... ;)

AFT Ilene  : industry standard in the non-Mac industry,
             Pieter?

AFA Pieter : It is rapidly becoming the bus of choice on the
             PC.

TM ScottS  : Which Industry does PCI come from?

AFL GeneS  : Intel.

PERockwell : PCI comes from Intel, IBM, Digital, etc. Not
             just the PC vendors.

AFA Pieter : PCI was developed by Intel as a processor
             independent high performance bus

TM ScottS  : Chances of PCI boards being multi-platform
             compatible?

PERockwell : For example, Digital is not only using PCI on
             PCs, but mid-range UNIX servers as well.

Alexis Kai : Depends on the board.

AFC PeterS : Chances, but no guarantees, last I heard.

AFA Pieter : Very high as all they would need to do is change
             the ROMs and could very possibly go with a flash
             ROM that you simply configure by running a
             program on your Mac

TM ScottS  : So a single PCI board could be developed for use
             on either PowerPC or IBM clones?

AFL GeneS  : That's the ticket, TM.

Alexis Kai : I think certain board areas will be more
             compatible than others, right?

Alexis Kai : Hold it---Gene, did you finish your answer to my
             RAM query?

AFL GeneS  : Alexis: Basically yes. Figure 4MB or more RAM
             for the Power Mac compared to a 68K model. And
             you will use every bit of it. Also figure on
             getting a slightly bigger drive. But the Apple
             250MB is a decent product.

AFA Pieter : Video board manufacturers probably will while
             Ethernet boards probably won't Alexis, I
             actually doubled the amount of RAM I recommend
             for new systems from 8 to 16 megs Good enough

Alexis Kai : So from 8/100 to 8 and RAMDoubler/250? Or should
             I spring for 16? Or 12?

AFA Pieter : NO, get at least a 500 as they are only about
             $100 different

Alexis Kai : Pieter, what on Earth would I do with 500 Mbs?

AFL GeneS  : Alexis: Hard disk space never expands faster...

AFA Pieter : I don't know Alexis, but software always expands
             to 110% of the available HD space

AFC Donna  : Finish a project before you start it?

AFL GeneS  : than the data you have to fill it with. I just
             gotta 1.7GB drive, and it's filling so rapidly,
             it's incredible.

PERockwell : Alexis - spring for the 16. As new features get
             put into PowerMac apps - they'll use the memory

AFA Pieter : I have just about filled my 1.4 GBs

Alexis Kai : Yes, Gene, but what do you use it for?

AFL GeneS  : A little bit of everything. Text, graphics,
             sound, applications.....fonts..




PaulRose   : What is happening with QuickTime? Do you think
             it will be integrated into System Software? And
             where is QT 2.0?

AFA Pieter : Paul QT 2 is still not released.  Perhaps soon




JRL13      : How can you configure ROM if it's Read Only?
             <GA>

AFA Pieter : You burn it in with a special programming
             device.  However unless it is a erasable ROM, ie
             Flash ROM or EEPROM, then it is a one shot deal.
             Kinda makes finding Bugs that much more annoying
             ga

JRL13      : Before someone said you would install a program
             that would change the ROM

AFA Pieter : If they have Flash ROM, then yes you can tell it
             to erase itself and then write new information
             into it

AFT Ilene  : do you mean RAM Doubler?

AFA Pieter : from then on, unless you erase it the ROM will
             only contain the new software No, you need
             special software that will talk to the Flash ROM
             and trip the erase circuits.




MAHA BONE1 : how to convert IBM wavs to Mac?

AFL Bear   : Dunno - maybe SoundEdit Pro or SoundEdit Pro 16?

JRL13      : Get either Balthazar or SoundBuilder from Mac
             Music & Sound Forum

TM ScottS  : SoundBuilder!

JRL13      : I prefer SoundBuilder because it converts both
             ways and lets you convert VOCs

AFT Ilene  : JRL, what is a VOC?

MAHA BONE1 : nothing in the AOL download files?

JRL13      : A VOC is a different sound format on Windows

TM ScottS  : VOC: Voice Open Collaborative...

AFT Ilene  : thankx

AFA Pieter : Does that help maha?

MAHA BONE1 : guess so, thanks all.




Alexis Kai : Anyway, here goes... First, is there a shareware
             program that will do batch sound format
             converting? Second, is it possible to take an
             old 800K drive out of the casing and install it
             as a second drive in my Mac II?

AFT Ilene  : I took an 800 drive out of casing (or Earl did,
             actually)

Alexis Kai : It was the drive for an Apple IIGS.

AFA Pieter : As for the 800K drive, yes it will work just
             fine.

AFT Ilene  : oh, that's different.  I don't know about the GS
             drive... Earl?

Alexis Kai : OK, Ilene, but how would I hook it up to the
             internal plug?

AFA Pieter : It is the same drive Ilene

Alexis Kai : Actually, the "IIGS" part shouldn't make any
             difference.

EarlChr    : I don't know what the 2nd plug on a Mac II
             floppy looks like

AFA Pieter : You will just need another floppy cable for the
             Mac II Same kind used on a SE or annoy other Mac.

Alexis Kai : So where would I find it, Pieter? The internal
             plug has pins.

EarlChr    : Floppy cables should be easy to make.

AFA Pieter : Most electronic supply houses either have the
             cable or can make one up. Just take the one out
             of your Mac II and show it to them

Alexis Kai : I can't use the external one, because it has
             pins, too. Pieter, what are some supply houses?

AFA Pieter : No, you need a floppy ribbon cable.

JRL13      : Alexis, I don't think there is shareware batch
             converter (I doubt that there's even a
             commercial one).

AFA Pieter : I use Norvac electronics here, but just look
             under electronics supply and you should be fine

Alexis Kai : Do ya think MacZone or MacWarehouse would have
             one?

EarlChr    : Are there two internal connectors for floppies
             on a Mac II?, Or is it some kind of parallel
             connection

AFL Bear   : Separate cables, Earl.

AFA Pieter : Yes Earl there are two connectors.  At least my
             Mac II had two of them

Alexis Kai : All right, there's a Radio Shack close by. I'll
             try them. Thanks.




DIGI RAVEN : Can a CD-ROM  be dumped to a hard drive and run
             properly?

AFT Ilene  : If you have the gigs!

AFA Pieter : Yes, that should not be a problem.  Remember
             however that some CD-ROMS contain up to 660Megs

DIGI RAVEN : I have 5 1/4"optical storage.

BarryP13   : gigs is too small...terabytes would be needed...

DIGI RAVEN : But no CD-ROM...

AFA Pieter : Well given that 51/4 is not much faster than CD-
             ROM, why bother?

DIGI RAVEN : No CD-ROM...

AFA Pieter : as they are only about $300 to $400 for a
             good one, I think that would be a much more cost              effective option, given that 51/4 disks are
             about $100 each

DIGI RAVEN : Borrow a friends for downloading. I'm only going
             to use a few at a time. I have about 10 of 'em
             sitting around. Thanks!

AFA Pieter : In any case, there is no technical reason why it
             should not work. OK Peter, who is next

DIGI RAVEN : cool...




LONDON1813 : Anyone have the System Update 3.0 on an 840? If
             so, is there any improvement? (Speed etc.)

AFA Pieter : I think they fixed the disk thrash and other
             resource handling problems That would speed it
             up

LONDON1813 : Great! Thanks Also

AFA Pieter : Yes?

LONDON1813 : Is there an update for the Geoport on AOL.?

AFA Pieter : I now there is one on Applelink for the PowerMac
             but not for the 840

LONDON1813 : Cheers